- #67 [長長影子], 21-04-21 00:02
- #66 [長長影子], 21-04-20 23:41FYI, AES 裡面已經發表咗同 MQA 相關資料有好多,我只貼一個例,有興趣知多啲可以自己 search 吓。
"重點係我再講多一次 ...我始終都係一個“普通人”。
<- 但我想請問,乜會有唔係普通人?
最後修改時間: 2021-04-20 23:58:26 - #65 [長長影子], 21-04-20 23:34FYI,專業同相關人士包括有耳音樂人等。
最後修改時間: 2021-04-20 23:43:49 -
- #64 [長長影子], 21-04-20 23:30兄台,請有冇真係 click 入去睇睇有幾多條 link 係濫竽充數?
- #63 [K66], 21-04-20 23:23
唔好意思,到現時為止我始終只會相信專業同相關人士包括有耳音樂人同製作者嘅說話,起碼佢地先有權同清楚知道條“母帶”應該係出咩聲,因為個錄音係佢自己做,肯定冇人能夠夠佢清楚,所以佢地嘅表態先至係有足夠嘅說服力,並非一味晒圖表,波形同技術可代表到一切結論,音響嘢一句到尾只能聽聲收貨,師傅一早教落,技術數據只能作參考,重點係我再講多一次 ...我始終都係一個“普通人”。
MQA Really Is A Fraud !
MQA is NOT lossless
MQA adds unwanted noise and distortion
MQA is not usually sourced from a high-sample rate master
MQA ‘authentication’ does not authenticate/guarantee anything (NOTE: the blue light is nonsense)
GoldenSound’s YouTube page containing this video also includes a number of valuable references:
How to test MQA’s leaky filter: https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/to…
2018 RMAF MQA talk by Chris Connaker:
Archimago’s MQA article: https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/review…
PS Audio vid on MQA:
Schiit on MQA: https://www.schiit.com/news/news/why-…
Linn on MQA: https://web.archive.org/web/202011112…
Neil Young removes albums from TIDAL: https://neilyoungarchives.com/news/1/…
John Atkinson of stereophile confirms low-level distortion: https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/to…
Further reading on MQA: GTO filter analysis: https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/to…
Benchmark Audio’s statement about MQA transient shifting: https://www.theabsolutesound.com/arti…
RealHD stops supporting MQA: https://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=7218
Archimago on transient smearing https://archimago.blogspot.com/2018/0…
Rob Watts on digital filters: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/watts…
Benchmark on MQA: https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/appl…
Meridian has doctored tests of hi-res in the past: https://audioinvestigations.blogspot….
Filter ringing (with a link to Mans/troll audio) https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/to…
Aliasing vs. imaging: https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/to…
Music aliasing distortion example: https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/to…
Linear phase vs. Minimum phase: https://troll-audio.com/articles/line…
Sox settings to duplicate an MQA filter: https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/to…
JA’s post showing signal aliasing: https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/to…
mansr’s original Dragonfly DAC analysis: https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/to…
Why MQA’s digital filters blur the music: https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/to…
A Survey of Musical Instrument Spectra to 102.4 KHz https://www.cco.caltech.edu/~boyk/spe…
RealHD Audio on MQA: https://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=6517
Bob Stuart wanted to censor AS: https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/to…
最後修改時間: 2021-04-20 23:35:13 - #62 [evga56], 21-04-20 23:10MQA同線材討論一樣,每隔一排就有人跳出嚟同你講無用、係騙局etc.
- #61 [長長影子], 21-04-20 22:55兄台此言差矣,人哋已經申請咗專利,又已經喺好多期嘅科學期刊刊登研究嘅結果包括聽覺系統研究結果、客觀測試數據、主觀嘅盲測數據,人哋又已經清清楚楚明確解釋咗 lossless 嘅定義又 submit 咗唔少數據,但兄台又視而不見卻斷章取義,兄台都未曾講得出啲咩論點就斷定人家係誤導、騙局,唔通人哋又賺過兄台嘅錢或欺騙咗兄台嘅感情? 兄台之前都分享咗買 Holo Spring L2 I2S相關嘅例子,如果係店員宣傳上誤導你用 I2S 先至係最好聲,唔通唔誤導你嘅喱數又可算係 Holo Spring L2 間公司身上? 咁 MQA 發明佢嘅方法,畀其他人用錯誤運又或者畀其他用佢專利嘅音響公司用誤導嘅方法去宣傳條數又係入 MQA 數?
相反小弟見兄台嘅 post 畀唔少師兄話兄台如何自吹自擂,亦見到有唔少師兄指出唔少技術謬誤嘅地方,都唔計私底吓同我講嘅朋友,人哋師兄都忍唔住講到咁白、講到出口話知少少扮代表叫兄台自己講埋去,咁都唔係誤導咁應該叫咩呢? 既然兄台嘅研究咁秘密又打算將來申請專利,睇怕都唔打算將成果免費造福人群,咁又何必要喺度扮分享其實等人哋套埋料畀你但又驚人哋偷你嘅料? 見到人哋明醒你話埋畀你知,又要扮晒自己已經知道,咁又情何以難堪呢?
"大家都係攞網上人哋做出嚟嘅報告上嚟討論(樓主已提供),你唔係諗住所有嘢都一定要自己用儀器測試出嚟先可以擺出嚟? 如果係噉樣我諗呢度剩返你可以發言。"
"講真句,成日講數據同講技術未必人人識睇同啱睇,請你記住,我地大部份“發燒友”都係一個“普通人”,亦未必係識電子或係電工佬 ...反而我較為鐘意講事情講事實,(因為已有大把高人分享咗表態)分享一件事情嘅内容重要過一大堆未必人人理解嘅圖表,波形或技術,普通人如果頂唔住又點睇落去吖?"
<- 我亦提供 MQA 嘅回覆同埋我自己對回覆嘅個人意見,重點係個 file 本身已經係有問題。 我又唔係網主我唔會控制到人哋可唔可以發言,玩音響都可以係一個學習過程,亦都冇人乜都識得晒,我當然明白到有發燒友唔鐘意向科技術方面探究,有時討論中有數據就算証明唔到好唔好聽都可以證明到一啲客觀現象,正如兄台所講 "你可以選擇唔睇架嘛"。 一直以來網上見到講嘅技術好多都只係人云亦云、似是而非,最經典莫過於叫人剛打地線。 但我自己就寧願死慳死抵自己買儀器返嚟自己測都係唔想畀啲偽人欺騙、誤導,當然宜家先知道大家其實睇唔明數據圖表甚至唔鐘意睇,日後都唔需要再嘥時間去整理及分享,正如我一直都覺得睇嗰啲偽技術、偽科學、偽分享嘅 post 係浪費時間,但只係怕其他迷途羔羊被誤導以矣。
另外網上都唔係一面倒反 MQA,其中下以嘅回覆帶出重點,就係 garbage in, garbage out。
節錄自 MQA 嘅回覆:
As you may have seen in the messages returned from the service, the analysis phase of the encoder objected outright to 11 of the 14 files you submitted, with the message: “There was an error in this audio file. The MQA encoder was unable to encode it.”
The three that passed through presented these various warnings in combinations:
"Audio invalid ‐ Excessive alias ..."
"Audio invalid ‐ Input audio is predominantly 16 bits while file container is 24 bits "Input audio appears to have been wrapped",
"Input audio contains a band edge ..."
"Encode may not have worked as desired and may require further QC"
最後修改時間: 2021-04-20 23:11:27 - #60 [K66], 21-04-20 21:42#57
講真句,成日講數據同講技術未必人人識睇同啱睇,請你記住,我地大部份“發燒友”都係一個“普通人”,亦未必係識電子或係電工佬 ...反而我較為鐘意講事情講事實,(因為已有大把高人分享咗表態)分享一件事情嘅内容重要過一大堆未必人人理解嘅圖表,波形或技術,普通人如果頂唔住又點睇落去吖?
最後修改時間: 2021-04-20 21:54:50 - #59 [mcc2018], 21-04-20 21:02這麽多的爭議似乎都是跟利益有關,有人指出 MQA係跟 DRM (digital right management) 有點類似,1.起碼 diy'er似乎冇辦法弄一個解到 MQA的 DAC, 除非磅水,2.有 MQA的 file 用民用工具去 edit也應該保留不到個 coding, 3.似乎個 coding 係有encryption, 不易破解,如果全人類的 audio file格式都跟佢,佢有機會違反反壟斷法,4.Meridian如果執粒,如何應對日後的更新。5.Audio & record industry 個餅看來很難大幅度擴大,難保有其他競爭者用同樣方法去壟斷市場,對普通用家也許不是好事。
- #58 [DYreal], 21-04-20 20:49長長兄嘅概念真係有啲問題,我分享我點樣研發一條信號線,裏面涉及到可以攞專利嘅地方我唔講好正常。裏面所用嘅材料基本上我都如實咁講咗出嚟,絕對冇將銅線講成金線或者銀線去誤導他人,亦都冇從此發售噉點樣算係一個騙局,好似你話齋我騙咗你感情? 騙咗你用時間去睇? 你可以選擇唔睇架嘛。
CD我諗佢響宣傳上面從來都冇話佢同錄音母帶級一樣原聲,SACD我諗頂多話接近,但係而家MQA係講可以〈提供錄音母帶級的原聲〉有所不同。我諗大家睇咗呢段說話唔會諗起MP3 file,可能都應該係諗起Wav file或其他無損檔案機會大啲。
如果有人因為上面這句說話而去投資落去有相關設備嘅機上面,但最後屘發覺以下嘅事實,以一個正常人嚟講你覺得佢心裏面會點諗? 就算佢好滿意嗰個出嚟嘅音效,我諗佢當場都會覺得有少少被誤導成分掛。
<MQA is NOT lossless
<MQA adds unwanted noise and distortion
<MQA is not usually sourced from a high-sample rate master
<MQA ‘authentication’ does not authenticate/guarantee anything
大家都係攞網上人哋做出嚟嘅報告上嚟討論(樓主已提供),你唔係諗住所有嘢都一定要自己用儀器測試出嚟先可以擺出嚟? 如果係噉樣我諗呢度剩返你可以發言。
最後修改時間: 2021-04-20 20:50:11 - #57 [長長影子], 21-04-20 20:04認同兄台嘅講法, 抱有懷疑嘅態度亦好合理。
我只係覺得若能分享技術證據大家討論更歡迎,點都好過未搞清楚來又冇任何證據就話係謊言、騙局。 - #56 [K66], 21-04-20 19:15#54
題目上嘅“又係”好明顯就係解作音响行業一早就有不只一個嘅騙局,玩得家庭音響嘅人都一早知啦,而“可能”兩個字字面已經並不代表每一件事情嘅絕對真或假,亦係冇一定嘅結論,鍾意嘅人一定話好聲,未聽過嘅絕對可以抱著懷疑嘅心態去接觸每一件新事物,我地大多數人都係普通人一個,只係靠信自己對耳仔或所謂專家或者係專業音樂人嘅說話,以作明燈參考,既然有咁多行家,音樂人,音樂製作人都認為呢件事係有問題存在,就藉得大家對呢啲新事物有一定嘅保留同埋質疑,其實係好正常不過嘅一件事喎。
最後修改時間: 2021-04-20 19:23:02 - #55 [hahayanyan], 21-04-20 18:27The way I understand those mqa.. It seem to be a more effective way to package and stream audio signal.... Lossless or not... And what actually is lossless...haha...further understanding is needed...
I suppose lossless is not actually lossless too... But
A lot of learning is needed, and too many things to learn too.. Haha
Is it sound nicer..? Or hardware cost much higher..?
Anyone done a good job test.. From mqa version vs a HD version.. Lets say from tidal?
For me.. As a user.. Seem why... Not.. If the piece of hardware with mqa.. Does not cost too much more or even the same.. Etc..
Same in the old day.. Rca.. Capital and deccA had their own way for their LP.... Today... Mqa.. And other...
Reminded me.. Those are color processor... Reproduce video image... By using less data.. And looked pleasant.. Etc.. Always debated.. Vs the truth from memory...
Today.. Mqa... Relay on.. Hey."master engineer... Do u feel it is closer to the session.. From that mqa listening exp..?"
somehow funny... how do a user know the truth...never...
but fact is thos MQA seem to consume less internet bandwidth.. for a level of fidelity
i suppose there is some user..do not care what truth is..but care is the outcome...logically better or does he heard things..feellllllllllllll better
lossless seem to be some sort of open source of not quite regulated standard too ... ..seem always about imitation after decompress
最後修改時間: 2021-04-20 18:40:06 - #54 [長長影子], 21-04-20 18:22"個人覺得HDMI先係現今嘅萬能傳送介面,i2S純粹只係個人欣賞佢係將data同clock訊號分離傳輸嘅設計啫,線同傳送方式嘅問題,到此為止,唔好搞到大家好似喺度上緊科學堂咁,不如返番我個題目講返正題好過啦。"
<- 兄台嘅題目係"可能又係一個騙局" ,所以我所理解"又係"即係可能多於一個,而 I2S 我都覺得可能係一個騙局,sales 叫人用 I2S 都可能係一個騙局,講整訊號線但裡面講嘅技術似是而非賣弄玄虛亦可能係一個騙局...。 但如果我哋唔用科學嘅觀點去分享或討論,又或者係喺度玩捉字蚤。 咁既然有人聽完覺得係好/壞,就可以做結論,咁冇咩值得討論,已經可以講完。
最後修改時間: 2021-04-20 18:32:05 - #53 [長長影子], 21-04-20 17:42用 I2S I/F data/clk 沒有 align 好就有機會出現圖中喱啲毛病。
正如我之前所講 streaming 嘅 file 有好多良莠不齊嘅版本,就等如以前有人將 MP3 file 轉成 SACD 嚟賣咁賺錢法,係人嘅問題,唔係 format 本身嘅問題。 之前都已經解析咗好多次,中間 bit to bit 一樣嘅所謂 lossless 根本冇意思,中間 ADC, DSP, DAC 等等嘅 colouration 係需要被修正先可以做到聽感上嘅 lossless。 唔信 MQA 可以唔用,冇人迫你一定要用,反正宜家已經大把 h/w 包括 dCS, Mytek, etc 都可以 support 有得選擇。 CD, SACD 係咪又一定可以保證到同錄音母帶級的原聲一樣聲? 如果有畀人欺騙(包括金錢或感情),覺得宣傳手法就已經有誤導嘅行為可以試吓去告佢,有能力嘅話亦都一樣可以攞 scientific evidence 出嚟大家一齊討論,solid 嘅話甚至登上 AES 畀專家小組審查證明佢技術上係有誤導成份。 如果連試都未試,只係想玩捉字蝨,大家亦冇咩事質嘢可以討論落去。
"Is MQA really lossless? MQA isn't lossless?
This question often seems to assume that lossless is always best but in fact all "lossless" does is to take some bits and to reproduce those same bits at another time or place. It that's all you wanted to do, FLAC would be fine and there would be no need for MQA. The team behind MQA understand not only lossless compression but also lossless processing and data burying.
There is a fundamental difficulty if we focus solely on strict lossless delivery. It is understood that a digital distribution system (including MQA) can be lossless in distribution and therefore requires lossless delivery. The problem is that the result is not delivered today; current DACs do not have lossless behaviour in the digital domain and all behave differently. Also the replay chain has several (sometimes unintended) places where losslessness breaks down. This is covered in our papers.
So MQA is set up to deliver a 'closer-to-lossless' digital path up to the DAC modulator with the goal of approaching analogue-to-analogue' lossless' within appropriate thermal limits, including protecting the signals above 'acoustic absolute zero'.
Furthermore, the system path from analogue to analogue is more precise because of the other parts of the technology. Lossless deals with data in the digital domain. The biggest problem, in our experience, is getting it from analogue and back to analogue with the least audible damage. Unless you understand this perspective MQA looks strange.
The problem that MQA is addressing is how to transport an analogue signal to another time or place. It is the analogue signal from the mixing desk that the producer heard and that is the signal that you want to reproduce at your loudspeaker.
Many recording and mastering engineers have testified that MQA improves very considerably on the conventional methods, recreating the sound they actually hear or remember from the original session or, in the case of archive material, the sound from an analogue tape recorder."
最後修改時間: 2021-04-20 17:57:55 - #52 [DYreal], 21-04-20 17:08集體催眠,大話講一遍未必有人信,但當講到100遍嘅時候開始好多人會相信。先唔好講佢係咪真係好聲啲,淨係講佢嘅宣傳手法就已經有誤導嘅行為。
當好多音響大品牌都講: MQA提供錄音母帶級的原聲。
https://manuals.cambridgeaudio.com/zh-hant/dacmagic-200m/master-quality-authenticated-mqa
最後修改時間: 2021-04-20 17:13:02 - #51 [hahayanyan], 21-04-20 16:45Haha... Icicic
百分百... Haha
百分百這個概念 係咪technical paper講㗎 or from the those funny marketer?
Is it super hard to proof.. If it is not 100/100?
最後修改時間: 2021-04-20 16:46:14 - #50 [DYreal], 21-04-20 16:34就係呢個百分百、無損壓縮呢幾個字。
http://www.feversound1.com/mqa/
MQA全寫是「Master Quality Authenticated」,於2014年12月由英國音響廠家Meridian發表,主要是利用特殊編碼處理,將24bit/192kHz的音樂訊息,「重組」成和恆定bit rate大約為1.5Mbps的PCM檔案,容量和流量大約只是和PCM 16bit / 48kHz相近,但利害的是,在支援MQA解碼的DAC處理下,這個檔案可以被還原為24bit / 192kHz的音質,完全百分百與錄音室高規格數碼母帶檔案一模一樣。大家試想想,本來24bit / 192kHz無壓縮立體聲音訊,bitrate是高達9.2Mbps,但MQA卻只需1.5Mbps就能做到同樣品質,實在非常有利串流使用。有了MQA技術,現時提供無損壓縮串流服務例如Tidal或Qobuz,由16bit / 44.1kHz提昇到24bit / 192kHz,在技術上變得容易,在用家層面看,有了MQA技術,即使使用Wi-Fi甚至3G/4G流動網絡,也能穩定獲得母帶級的音樂串流品質。
最後修改時間: 2021-04-20 16:37:19 - #49 [hahayanyan], 21-04-20 16:21假設佢係一個騙局, 有冇啲好容易令我呢一種dummy 都會明白... 佢係一個騙局嘅原因呢?
as it said.. from the first given link..
****
MQA is NOT lossless
MQA adds unwanted noise and distortion
MQA is not usually sourced from a high-sample rate master
MQA ‘authentication’ does not authenticate/guarantee anything
***
did not mean it is a 騙局.... it said it is not good enough.. haha or having something not so good..etc.
i am a dummy..in this area seem i need to read from 101 https://www.mqa.co.uk/newsroom/qa/what-is-mqa and https://bobtalks.co.uk/blog/mqa-philosophy/what-is-mqa/
最後修改時間: 2021-04-20 16:34:35 - #48 [DYreal], 21-04-20 16:12十年八載都係中文嘅形容詞,約莫嘅意思就係需要長啲嘅時間去驗證,即係等於mcc師兄嘅『春秋筆法』另一種嘅中文用法。
其實響我買Holo Spring L2取貨當日,店員都極力推銷我用I2S做連接,話聲音比起USB點好點好好幾多天下無敵咁上下,當然用電腦USB輸出就要買佢嗰部convector(其實我打算係用USB轉光纖才入DAC),亦即係Singxer SU-1。好彩當時我比較過我嗰套系統(DacMagic plus)光纖係好過數碼同軸輸入,我嘅信念都係覺得有直接地連接會係衰聲嘅主因之一,何況而家仲加多嚿嘢再多個噪音源(電源噪音),我絕對唔覺得會好咗所以冇買到。
好彩當時冇買到,而家隔幾年咪比人踢爆佢原來係咁差勁,網上嘅用家仲響度話佢I2S啲聲點勁點勁點好聲,信人不如信自己。
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