- #49 [Brother Kei], 12-01-27 18:34
- #48 [NAR], 12-01-27 18:34Modern pop music were usually recorded in different places/studio and in different time, it is most likely using multi-track recordings and were also recorded by different engineers. To make the matter more complicated, the recording enhgineers, mixing engineers and mastering engineers are most likely different people and most likely none of the mixing engineer or mastering engineer had heard the actual music during the recording because it is not their job.
Mixing were done my mixing engineers using their own imagination of instrument placement and usually according to their previous work experience.
Some mixing engineer would apply compressions to the music on individual track or the entire mix just to please the clients, producers and/or the musicians with no regards to the mastering engineers who may have to reverse engineer some of the work done by the mixing engineers, often mastering engineer would curse the mixing engineers for what they have done. The problem may be reduced if the mixing engineer gives some clue to the mastering engineer what they have done in the mix, but this is a wishful thinking.
If the mastering engineer cannot make music sound good, the producers will dismiss them and go find someone else. Sometime, it is not entirely the fault of the mastering engineers who cannot make music sound perfect for the (1. to the producers/ clients / musicians) and sometimes detailed documentation supplied to the mastering guy would certainly help. [This is usually the case in classical music recordings but not so in pop as common practice].
The audiences were the ones who are given whatever pre-set for them without say or have any choice. They either have to trust the producers judgement when they but the product. (I cannot make comment on whether the products are good or not here when I have no music to refer to make comment), but this is the music industry in the world.
The lesser the dynamic range of the music, it is most likely suitable for majority of music play back systems (large or small), and therefore compression is so important to making a product that can be played properly on any system regardless whether they are good product or not.
In classical music, it is only the best high end equipment, a suitable room size to match and proper room acoustic combined would be able to appreciate those recordings with absolutely no compression, EQ, brickwall limiting etc. Then, I wonder how many people have the opportunity to really appreciate something special totally different to norm and without having to worry about loudness and compressed music but enjoy a true dynamic range as music which were recorded during a performance.
I will not go into detail regarding the number of mic used in a recording, this will only confuse the issue about clarity, layering and width for classical music say comparing to Loudness.
Miking in classical music and pop music are different, some pop music may even use up to a dozen microphones just for a drum set. But it depend on how the music are presented as the final product,the number of microphones used are irrelevant. Loudness War becomes an important factor to be considered by the music industry.
Meanwhile, loudness in music using compression and most likely with excessive compression are here to stay. I honestly regret to say this, some people cannot appreciate music without loudness presentation while many of us would prefer the alternatives ( I am one of the minorities).
最後修改時間: 2012-01-27 18:47:21 - #47 [孟波], 12-01-27 14:43人地日本仔70S~80S在斗室玩JBL 4343和西電拆船貨,有d香港發燒友重取笑佢地,今日卻又行人家舊路。
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- #46 [TISvili11], 12-01-27 13:48Pilotrol兄;
恭喜發財!
Stereo Sound經常訪問銘器/古董收藏狂人一屋大大小小不同期喇叭器材
香港有教父高亦以一屋大大小小不同期喇叭器材岀聲可謂不讓日本仔專美的音响演奏家
系冇或不熟讀音响歷史下傾Loudness,一個本來系古董前級上有的function,或系Cello Pallette都揾得到的gain control,等於空談
支持Pilotrol兄帶番我地認清史實
p.s埋住两張紅牌,吾去你專題拜年拉 >_<
最後修改時間: 2012-01-27 14:00:35 - #45 [faimiu], 12-01-27 11:58Gong Xi Fat Cai ALL Chings
Thanks for sharing these insightful information.
For the local Cantonese pops, i could recall their early releases of HDCD, DCS.(around the 90's) were pretty good quality in general with slight degree of manipulations/enhancements while not negatively impacting the tonal balance, despite there could be a few failure cases.
Then in the past 10 years there were many re-releases carrying different gimmicks with much fewer success cases. I think the main reason is over-focus on manipulations and technology. Sound engineers could be driven by the commercial decisions to make the re-release copy to sound distinctively different.
Sometimes, the engineer might not have the musical knowledge and the background when the piece was created. This could be a critical factor especially when re-mastering Classical Recordings, that even minor changes could lead to easily audible outcome. Recently i have some experiences with HQCD and SHMCD classical recordings (from EMI, DGG, Decca) that the better sound quality should be caused by better raw materials. In fact, i find that there are also some changes (some are good changes, and some are bad changes) in the sound image and the sound stage as compared to the early releases.
最後修改時間: 2012-01-27 11:58:36 - #44 [Pilotrol], 12-01-26 23:31這個問題是始於市場需求同器材發展問題,50-60年代大部份前級附都有Tone Control,發燒友都可以自行調聲。70年代EQ和前級開始分家,其實背後最大原因是廠家可以一雞兩食,一件前級現在卻可以分拆成兩件部件賣...!到了80年代Hi-End界又推「原音運動」使EQ同Tone Control完全排除在前級之上,原因還不是因為可以節省前級整體製作成本吧了...!到今時今日大部份Hi-End前級沒有EQ或Tone Control了,其實就即係冇得調聲!
可笑的是由於現時大部份前級無EQ或Tone Control,發燒友冇得調聲,咁就唯有由唱片入手...!教聲的責佳就要靠錄音同混音師在唱片上預早調好聲,咁樣發燒友就可以回家一播就OK了...!
不過由於市場對預先教好聲的Hi-Fi碟有大量需求,而唱片公司為咗希望一張碟可以賣多幾次,結局就係不斷推出不同版本的Hi-Fi碟,另外為咗要一張碟勁過上一張,結果就係越教越誇張...!Colouration係一張勁過一張...有趣的是竟然有D發燒友係玩翻轉頭去炒頭版...基本上就是一個Hi-Fi市場嘅惡性循環...!
另一方面係錄音和混音師其實唔單只要有技術底,最重要是要懂音樂和擁有過人的音樂修養和音樂味蕾!因為錄音和混音好壞還是由他們作最後定案...!音樂並不只是睇數據,最後還是要靠人耳去決定...如果製作人音樂味蕾差,買咗碟嗰位就自然要聽垃圾了...!
最後修改時間: 2012-01-26 23:36:59 - #43 [TISvili11], 12-01-26 01:42系某個特定音响及音壓下,Artist認為系佢要表現既作品。其一
系D公司為左超越對手,推大到Engineer都嗌收手。其二
Loudness War最終輸贏系唱片公司自已負責
CD/音樂作品汰弱留強,千古不變 - #42 [Brother Kei], 12-01-26 00:42Hi TISvili11 c-hing,
> 要靚一定要clip,所有好靚都系尼個道理,上ebay睇下一切抄高既玩具fairchild660 670,Neve, pultec…………
浄系帶機Studer,Otari,Sony,Ampex, MCI,Nagra, Stellvox已經各有取向,一D旧式Studer C37更被收藏家認為任何digital source錄入播番岀黎靚過原裝
Thanks for sharing your expertise. I have no doubt that compressor is an important gear for pop music production. In fact Steve Hoffman has talked a few times about the great sound of Fairchild (I know it only by reading -- no firsthand experience) in his forum. What we are talking about, is the excessive unnecessarily compression and brickwalling. I don't think good sounding CDs need to be that loud as the examples on 22-24/F......
Please keep sharing with us your knowledge and fuel a healthy discussion! - #41 [Brother Kei], 12-01-26 00:34
Great video -- must-watch for all C-hings interested in knowing more about the Loudness War. This should be translated into Chinese!
Bob Katz - Loudness: War & Peace
Who is Bob Katz? See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Katz
最後修改時間: 2012-01-26 00:44:38 - #40 [NAR], 12-01-26 00:30cy05 Hing asked:
"is it during analog to digital conversion by different generation master tape causing the loudness different more than by means of audio digital signal processing software??"
Answer: I wish I can provide the answer for you. I have no idea what went on behind the scene with different engineers workmanship. Most of the time analogue master tapes provided by record companies will not be the early generation tapes, they are usually duplicate from later generations. We do not know the condition of such tape given to the engineer for transfer and therefore your guess is as good as mine.
If we assume the tape used were very early generation, then what about the condition of the tape after so many years, again, we assumed the taped had been well look after and kept at very good controlled environment all these years.
We always assume different brand and model of Analogue to digital converter would make the captured sound to sound differently. We also have to understand how the tape playback system is calibrated according to the tape formula and the condition of the analogue playback equipment. So I am not surprise the volume level are different as well.
Many mastering engineers may apply different mastering techniques to match the sound as closely to the the master tape as possible and other mastering engineer may apply extra tweak to enhance the sound of the finish product.
No information is given by the publisher to tell us what had been done to the material on the CD or SACD or whatever. Unless we have the master tape and the playback system to do an AB comparison, you and I would not have any idea what was done to the music. We, as the consumer must trust the product sold to us.
Loudness difference are usually set by the engineer for music captured not because of different generations of analogue master tape according to your question (if I understand what you were asking me). If the mastering engineer apply level changes or compression/dynamics or EQ to the capture file, this too will alter the sound level of the file. There are just too many unknown factors to be considered to be sure what is going on..
If the end product is in 44.1 16 bit, it doesn't really matter what higher sampling rate was used to capture the music, after all they are to be down converted after the mastering of the songs. Of course the higher the possible sampling rate used to capture analogue signal the better in my opinion.
Signal to noise improvement is obtained using suitable dithering as you mentioned, but background noise can be reduced using noise reduction software as well prior, there are so many things mastering engineers can do to improve signal to noise ratio while going through sampling rate conversion.
Happy listening.
***********************
I honestly hope members can share with us their view about the 'Loudness War'. POP music 'Loudness War' in general.
- #39 [Brother Kei], 12-01-26 00:27Again, the record producers have a lot to demand what the end product should sound like because they believe they know the market well and what the product should sound.
冇意得罪各位,但NAR兄系唯一吾洗聽老細支笛可以做香港最靚錄音既其中一位,吾似我要埋單既client approve
client approve,artist approve, producer approve
嘩!乜甘鬼死煩架,尼個就系現實,即便系Bob Ludwig都要被人點
I think the two c-hings are basically talking about the same thing. Yes, very often the record producers or artists demand the CDs to be as loud as possible, and of course the engineers often have to comply. They work for a living so they just follow what they are asked to do, which is totally understandable.
I myself have quite a few Bob Ludwig mastered CDs which are badly compressed or brickwalled. The same goes for Doug Sax, Bernie Grundman and many other famous engineers. So what? It doesn't make the Loudness War right.
最後修改時間: 2012-01-26 00:30:19 - #38 [katt], 12-01-25 23:30I also would like to apologize for off-topic. I'll stop to discuss that topic here.
NAR Hing, that's new insight to me. - #37 [NAR], 12-01-25 22:35Vili Hing,
Happy Chinese New Year, please inform us on any of your new and exciting new releases. I hope you will continue and as always, make more audiophile, producers and artists happy this years.
Please stop putting me on the table, music we are listening to are very personal. Our own personal taste may not be the same as the mass public. I just offer my personal non-professional opinion in this thread earlier, may be I wrote too much already.
最後修改時間: 2012-01-25 22:42:58 - #36 [NAR], 12-01-25 22:17katt Hing,
It is just a thought on my part, I do not rip CD regularly but my understanding is most computer CD writer/reader has some kind of error correction routine inbuilt into the drive. My gut feeling about EAC reports 100% may not mean the CD itself is 100% perfect. Another word if the CD reader automatically correct all the errors on the CD then I wonder would CRC matching the reference CRC is really relevant.
It is somewhat unclear to me whether EAC software actually bypass the error correction in the CD drive before doing the CRC match. I yet to find any information in the EAC software design to really understand what it is doing.
I also notice master CDs send to CD pressing plants, the production CD sounded somewhat different to the original master CD, so what had gone wrong? I am sure the pressing house must check all the incoming master CDs with CRC error checkand many other error checking routines. It is a mystery beyond my understanding. There are many possibilities it came cross my mind but expert should be consulted to get a detailed explanation.
I am sure engineers and producers would probably like to improve the sound for any re-release, it would be difficult for me to expect the re-release will sound exactly the same as the original release even though the master disc is may be identical if the pressing is done through a different pressing company. I think people are buying re-release CDs expecting they will sound different to the original release whether it is for better or for worse.
Sorry for being side tracked from the main topic in this thread. I think I will withdraw from making anymore sidetracked discussion. - #35 [TISvili11], 12-01-25 21:49NAR兄:
恭喜發財,oh吾記得左你已經系;甘就恭喜發巨財拉
冇意得罪各位,但NAR兄系唯一吾洗聽老細支笛可以做香港最靚錄音既其中一位,吾似我要埋單既client approve
client approve,artist approve, producer approve
嘩!乜甘鬼死煩架,尼個就系現實,即便系Bob Ludwig都要被人點
甘我地身為Engineer點對冲尼D似懂非懂既埋單先生
就系買玩具,所以Bob Ludwig等人收收埋埋甘多
要靚一定要clip,所有好靚都系尼個道理,上ebay睇下一切抄高既玩具fairchild660 670,Neve, pultec…………
浄系帶機Studer,Otari,Sony,Ampex, MCI,Nagra, Stellvox已經各有取向,一D旧式Studer C37更被收藏家認為任何digital source錄入播番岀黎靚過原裝
可惜而家Bob Ludwig吾似以前甘忙,因為D花靚成日用D cheapy software brickwall limiter交貨,唱片業冇budget好似JVC D老師夫,老Sale dir,通通提早退休
連最后把QC大將軍都冇埋
LP本身就要落mild comp/limiter至可以裝晒四分一寸甘大動態,24/192数碼空洞來自未成熟軟/硬/操作,舊CD靚聲因為可以系成千上萬CD中挑選岩個人口味及((((個人最中意音响特性)))) ,所以吾系Engineer叻,甘乜野先系準則,好似開餐館甘…… =w=w=
Loudness War ?
我吾方便話我老細喎,留番NAR講
最後修改時間: 2012-01-25 21:52:25 - #34 [katt], 12-01-25 20:40Brother Kei c-hing, NAR c-hing,
"Just a touch on the subject about ripping CD, if there are a varieties of different versions of the same recordings, people will get even more confused." - agree
"These databases identify the discs by scanning for some attributes, so it is possible to identify different masterings of the same album, and different pressings of the same master is not distinguished. But my experience is that often the data is not that accurate."
I see, I've been wondering because everytime I rip a CD of random country version, EAC always report it as 100% CRC matched with reference CRC, thus Accurate Rip.
This leads me to believe that I have the same .wav as everyone has, and 'believed' that every CD of the same album regardless of country/year of production has same waveform (thus same sound), which appeared to be not after I read this thread.
So that's why people with golden ears always say that "xxx country of xxx album sounds better" (i.e West Germany etc).
also I happen to visit a c-hing that has few different versions of Famous Blue Raincoat CD and played them, I do feel there are difference lol.
I know ripping CD is a different topic here, I just want to know how far it's related with this Loudness War.
Still Thanks for the answer. - #33 [cy05], 12-01-25 19:56Brother Kei
would you mind posting waveform data xrcd2 of 淡淡幽情 if you have time?
(as xrcd2 of 淡淡幽情 are transfered from the best master tape by japanese engineer) - #32 [Brother Kei], 12-01-25 18:49ll77hk c-hing,
I agree with you. Re-issues or new recordings are not necessarily always worse. In fact there are many successes in other markets such as Japan, Europe or USA. The fact that HK labels rarely get them right doesn't mean new is always worse.
Same goes with the cheap china new recordings. They're probably recorded in newly invested studio and with superior equipment. Also, the nature of the music being recorded (soft female vocals or demo-ready spectaculars) may be less affected by the loudness war.
Indeed loudness war is only part of the story but I think it is right that this is the most serious problem that has to be dealt with the soonest.
Will post more examples when I have time. Also I hope other c-hings can post waveforms and spread the message! - #31 [ll77hk], 12-01-25 17:45As an music lover and audiphile, I spent 30%/70% of my time listen to LP/CD, I tend to think it is far too general a statement to conclude ALL re-issues and new recordings are inferior to originals or those old analog recordings.
In the digital arena, both software an hardware are improving fast. Loudness war is only one of many elements of CD production which is likely an area of problems in re-issue but we just shouldn't ignore there are many CD production elements are improving fast for those re-issue CDs.
For new recording CDs I found more than few of these CDs recorded in China, selling 40 to 50 each are far better CD in sound quality alone than those locally HK produced CDs. Reasons being, simply, hardware is improving fast ... - #30 [cy05], 12-01-25 17:35NAR ching
is it during analog to digital conversion by different generation master tape causing the loudness different more than by means of audio digital signal processing software??
淡淡幽情 xrcd, the japanese engineer a to d 192 and dithering and finally down sample to 44.1 get much higher signal to noise ratio - 下一頁 (2 of 4)
- 返回 ...
Thanks a lot for your input!
You gave us a perspective on the phenomenon of these Hi-Fi CDs which I can agree to a great extent. Indeed there is a terrible viscous cycle going on, and we are getting nowhere except being told to buy the same music again and again! Very often they just tweak the same old digital master, and so there is only a difference, but not an improvement.
Personally, I cannot agree with 預先教好聲的Hi-Fi碟. Shouldn't we be given what the producers and artists want us to hear, instead of multiple versions of the same music greatly tweaked to different people's taste?
I understand that this point is arguable, but I'm not going to pursue here, because this is actually out of topic (離題). We're talking about the phenomenon of excessive compression and brickwalling in music in Hong Kong in general. Although this phenomenon also exists in HK-released audiophile CDs, it's less serious compared to new music. On the other hand, even if 預先教好聲的Hi-Fi碟 is good, it doesn't automatically render the Loudness War a good thing. The two issues need to be discussed separately.
最後修改時間: 2012-01-27 18:38:05