- #1 [Brother Kei], 12-01-20 11:58
- #2 [artaudio], 12-01-20 12:06support .....
香港人有留意, 只不過係從事錄音室的小部份人仕, 但在於市場的要求而無法子不over compress - #3 [hercules], 12-01-20 12:56it's one of the reason why new remaster CD worst than first releases in 80's
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- #4 [chorous], 12-01-20 15:18我最怕大電平錄音
- #5 [DWS], 12-01-20 15:38good thread
- #6 [anthlai], 12-01-20 15:44This is true that's why I love to listen old day CD.
- #7 [Brother Kei], 12-01-20 15:52Kent, please share your first hand information with us! I always love your mastering work for the lack of excessive compression and brickwalling.
- #8 [peter827], 12-01-20 19:12ear phone 用家是市場的主流,細動態的音樂製作是合理的方向,電平在不改變動態之下盡高亦是正確做法,但將前人大動態的音樂創作改細就可說是不得已的做法。我已廿幾年無聽ear phone了。
最後修改時間: 2012-01-20 19:15:36 - #9 [katt], 12-01-22 12:39I noticed this as well, I was really disappointed when lately I bought a recent production 'best compilation' album CD of an artist, the songs are actually clipping! it's crazy and can't be listened at all, thrown to rubish bin right away!
- #10 [NAR], 12-01-22 13:13If recording were made carefully using proper miking, there is no need to use limiters unless there is a specific need to do so for a particular mike. [other members may choose to call it brickwalling which may not the correct word to use but never the less we understand what the members are trying to say]. Human ears loves some minor compressions mainly because we are so familiar with the LPs sound. Anything different to the LP sound, people will complaint they sound too digital which again is not entirely true to speak. Music without compression tend to sound thinner. Again, we are accustomed to what we are listening to.
Loudness war sells CD, pop songs by record company because they draw people's attention. Some clasaical music label also tend to add very slight compressions but may be OK. To me, massive. compression + limiter is a big no no to my ears.
I would also watch out for any DC offset which is embedded into the music and generally I feel music with DC off set sounded ot as natural when comparing to without DC offset. The offset are placed there by those compressors and limiters for no reason at all, they are just there.
最後修改時間: 2012-01-22 13:28:35 - #11 [cpu8088], 12-01-22 19:38"""Anything different to the LP sound, people will complaint they sound too digital which again is not entirely true to speak."""
are u kidding? there are a lot of recordings done by tapes and who is going to say those recordings are too digital?
get real and dont try to spread your pseudo theories. - #12 [Kenny], 12-01-22 22:12Brother Kei, can you give an example of "loud" audiophile CD's ?
I never like the music from 00's onwards - I am not sure if it because of 16/44 limitations, or, the music is made synthetically. Earlier music recordings are by real singers and musicians and instruments, so they sound comfortable to me. - #13 [NAR], 12-01-22 23:30cpu8088
Its you again!!!???
How much do you know about music when you do not even have a reference sound system that you claim you are being the proud owner of such items.
If you understand what I wrote instead of making an argument for argument sake by picking only one or two words or sentence and make an issue out of it, but then again, your best effort are always displayed here in R33 and this is all you can do. cpu8088, get serious!!!
How much do you know what is behind the music industry and who is really driving this loudness war with total disregard of the naturalness of music, and isn't what the discussion is all about here?? [The Loudness War???]
最後修改時間: 2012-01-22 23:33:01 - #14 [Brother Kei], 12-01-25 01:31Hi NAR c-hing,
Thanks for sharing your first-hand expertise! A few amateur comments:
> [other members may choose to call it brickwalling which may not the correct word to use but never the less we understand what the members are trying to say].
I think brickwalling/brickwall limiting refers to the extent of limiting which results in a brickwall-like waveform (I posted an absolutely terrible example below).
> Loudness war sells CD, pop songs by record company because they draw people's attention.
With the decline of physical CD sales despite the ongoing loudness war (though there is not necessarily a co-relation) I doubt whether loudness war indeed sells CDs. I think it actually unsells them because the music can no longer be listened repeatedly without doing some sort of physical/mental harm.
> Some clasaical music label also tend to add very slight compressions but may be OK. To me, massive. compression + limiter is a big no no to my ears.
Do you have some examples to offer? I myself have the impression that the DG Originals re-issues are louder than older CDs (but I didn't check them). I think it's not that uncommon to find a tiny portion of clipped waveforms on some modern symphonic recordings, but I guess that's not part of the loudness war?
In general I don't think the loudness war affects the classical music sector in a serious way. - #15 [Brother Kei], 12-01-25 01:36Hi chorous c-hing,
Thanks for your example. But I think only the waveform from 2000 in your example is unacceptable. All the waveforms before that didn't hit the digital zero. In fact the 1993 waveform seems to show more dynamics! - #16 [Brother Kei], 12-01-25 01:47> Brother Kei, can you give an example of "loud" audiophile CD's ?
Sure! But to avoid being stoned, I will try to post less recent examples.
Below is a waveform of track 2 from 蔡琴老歌, Sanyo version (waveform is de-emphasized by computer software and dithered to 24 bit). - #17 [Brother Kei], 12-01-25 01:48Below is the same track from an audiophile re-issue from 2008.
I don't think this is a terrible example -- there is not even a brickwall on the waveform. Yet, you should also consider this is a very soft sounding album. Here it is no longer soft-sounding.
最後修改時間: 2012-01-25 01:52:14 - #18 [Brother Kei], 12-01-25 02:13This example is not an audiophile release - first track of 鄧麗君's 忘不了 album from 2001.
Again, the compression is not that terrible, but I can definitely hear it. Also, it tells you that Japan version CDs are not necessarily better! - #19 [falcongate], 12-01-25 02:15I suspect that the classical vocal recital discs would more likely have over-compression issue. For example, the Jonas Kaufmann German Romantic Opera recital is compressed relative to many classical recordings. This is a pity- this is otherwise a great disc.
Probably this sub genre has more cross-over appeals so recordings may be mastered in a way similar to pop recordings. Just my 2 cents... - #20 [Brother Kei], 12-01-25 02:20Hi falcongate c-hing,
Is it possible to share a waveform with us?
Actually I created the thread with a topic of the Loudness War in Hong Kong, referring to CDs released in Hong Kong mainly. So classical music is generally out-of-topic. But I guess other c-hings don't mind talking about that.
最後修改時間: 2012-01-25 02:22:34 - 下一頁 (1 of 4)
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I talked about the Loudness War in another thread, and thought it seems many Hong Kong music lovers and audiophiles are unaware of this phenomenon, or don't care. Is any C-Hing here also aware of it on the music released in Hong Kong?
First of all, some background information:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war
Loudness war is a well known phenomenon amongst music lovers in USA and Europe. They discuss about it and check the waveforms of their new CDs with software. They even complain to the musicians and labels when they find a CD is brickwalled to death! There are dynamic range databases and ongoing petitions and campaigns to ask the labels to stop releasing badly compressed and brickwalled CDs. Examples:
http://www.dynamicrange.de/
http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/
I am sensitive to badly compressed CDs. I can normally tell by just listening with a relatively better headphone through iPhone. It indeed gives an impression of more detail to the uninformed, but they would find their ears hurt and head aches after listening for some time. Therefore I am so surprised to have come across local audiophiles who think a badly compressed and/or brickwalled CD sounds better than a non-compressed CD because of more detail!
Hong Kong people like to complain, yet nobody seems to talk about (or even notice?) the effects of the Loudness War and scrutinize their CDs by checking the waveform. One thing I am sure is that they'll go lightheaded after checking some of their expensive audiophile CDs!